Interview with Chris Gimmer of Snappa

May 22, 2020 Brandon Waselnuk 56 min read

TL;DR - We interviewed Chris Gimmer of Snappa on our podcast, it's full of great wisdom on how to bootstrap a company from $0 to over $100,000 in Monthly recurring revenue (MRR)! Listen if you're interested in how Snappa got started, got it's first customers, and scaled efficiently.

Check out the podcast yourself an Interview with Chris Gimmer of Snappa: Bootstrapping, business growth, and how to get your first customers


As a note, if you're looking for something specific this transcript includes to the minute timestamps simply ctrl+f and search this format: [00:09:00] where 9 is 9 minutes!


Hello and welcome to Null to Zero I'm Brandon. Thanks for listening. Today's episode is a little different than our usual. Definitely goes quite a bit longer, but it's the first of our interview series. It certainly needs a better name, but we'll be interviewing top performing founders and creators and leaders of organizations to hear a bit about how they got started.

Today's interview is with Chris Gimmer of Snappa. Chris is one of the founders, and we'll talk us through quite a few things. Snappa is in a really great spot. When we recorded this interview, actually just about two weeks ago, they were at $94,000 in monthly recurring revenue that's USD. And since then I got a note from him saying that they've already hit over $110,000 in MRR.

So the growth is. Pretty substantial. I look forward to everybody hearing a bit about that, but on this podcast we talk about why Snappa chose to bootstrap, how they got their first customers, how they price their product, and how they kept and keep growing it. I really believe that you're going to like this and I look forward to all of your feedback on whether or not you like our interview series.

We'll certainly keep it going for a bit to get a little more sample size, but truly enjoy this. It's a refreshing take and thanks for listening.


Brandon Waselnuk: Hello and welcome to Null to zero the podcast about building something from nothing. Today I have the pleasure of being joined by my good friend Chris. Glimmer. Or Gimmer my God, man, I already butchered your do your name. That's horrible. How you doing man?

Chris Gimmer: Good yourself

Brandon Waselnuk: excellent. Now. Just horribly embarrassed essentially.

So we are recording this on, uh, April 16th. We are in the midst of a rather interesting black Swan event going on in the world. Uh, just as a note, we are far away. We are using Zencaster. We are not the same place. I swear. Uh, how are, how are you holding up man?

Chris Gimmer: , Holding up pretty good. Like I mentioned, uh, before we start recording, I was doing a bit of traveling and, , timing wise, uh, you know, was able to get back, , before things got really bad.

And so now just been laying low at home. , and, you know, keeping, keeping safe.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. That's, that's great man. I'm just really good to hear that. Um, I know that you're were both in Canada, which is nice. , I think they've done a. Pretty, pretty good job and a little bit slow to [00:01:00] start, but a good job of otherwise getting their mandates out there and saying like, please stay home and don't talk to each other.

But how are things in the city of Ottawa? Like I'm in Toronto, so I haven't really seen

Chris Gimmer: much. Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy just how quickly everything's changed. Like even maybe two weeks ago, you know, you can pretty much walk into any grocery store and not, not too much going on. And now there's a pretty much line lineup and every grocery store and, you know, really trying to make sure everyone keeps their distance and, and all of that stuff.

And you can tell people are letting little more weary. Um, so yeah, it, you know, people are definitely, , taking precautions, which is good. . So, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, everyone's just, you know, for the most part, staying home and, , just going out for bare essentials. So we'll, we'll see. Kind of what, what ha, what comes down the pike in the next

Brandon Waselnuk: few weeks.

Yeah, for sure. It's just good to hear. I mean, most of it's been decent here as well. Obviously Toronto is a little bit more populous, so we get a little more. Uh, I suppose radical [00:02:00] folks who, uh, you know, just really want to go outside, but otherwise, it's been great. So cool, man. I'm glad. I'm glad you and yours are safe.

So yeah, thanks again for joining us. on null to zero, uh, today I'm really pumped to talk to you about your company. Snappa um, I will let you explain it first. So, Chris, what's

Chris Gimmer: snapper. So, Snappa is essentially an easy to use graphic design tool that's basically geared towards non-designers. So, , we make it easy for like entrepreneurs and marketers, , to essentially create a online graphics for their social media, their blog content, , you know, display ads, all that kind of stuff.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's cool, man. That's really great. , my first obvious question is kind of how did the idea of snapper come to you? And maybe can you give us a little bit of background about when you got going? Um, I know this space is kind of known today, but you, I believe started it. Before it became very well known.

So a little bit of the background and, and sort of, yeah. How did you come up with it?

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, so I was working on, , another [00:03:00] business at the time with, , Mark, who's also my co founder with Snappa. And, , it was basically, , a marketplace for. A bootstrap names and templates. And the way we grew that business primarily was through content marketing.

And so it was just two of us. We didn't really have a lot of money and definitely not enough money, you know, hiring expensive graphic designers. So whenever, you know, we needed to create, um, you know, graphics for the blog in particular. , I was just kind of using Photoshop and, you know, struggling to hack some stuff together and, you know, even just finding the stock photos and whatnot.

So it was, it was a kind of a pain. And then, uh, fast forward, uh. A few months after that, um, we, we ended up writing a blog post about where to find free stock photos that went viral. Um, so yeah, so it was just kind of interesting where all of a sudden we have all this traffic coming to this blog posts. , we were.

Plateauing in that business and, you know, realizing that [00:04:00] we really wanted to get in the SaaS game, uh, because of, you know, the recurring revenue and the unit economics of the business model. So, you know, at that point we thought, well, we have this, uh, blog posts that's getting a lot of traffic for free stock photos.

Um, we kind of have this idea, , to create the SaaS app. , and so what we did was we, we actually did a, an in between step where. We created a free stock photo site where we essentially curated a bunch of really nice, . A copyright free stock photos, um, and tag them and made them searchable because at that time, a lot of the really nice, uh, websites like Unsplash um, and some of the other ones, um, they, they were just releasing like 10 new photos every week or something that, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so we thought, well, why don't we just amalgamate some of the best and, and make them searchable? Cause that was kind of a pain point. . So we, , , we launched stock snap, uh, which started to get, uh, uh, a lot of traffic. Um, and then we basically use [00:05:00] that to kind of validate the idea of the SAS app and at the same time, like drive traffic to it, um, and, and start collecting email addresses.

And then eventually we ended up launching Snappa.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's so cool, man. It's like, this is possibly one of the most like obvious entrepreneurial sort of approaches to creating a really cool product that I hear. You know? It's like I was working on a thing and it was, it went well, and then it's like, you know, tests that wind up becoming actual products are always very interesting to me.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. And the thing was Snappa was like. Because it's a freemium tool with a really low price point. We knew that, especially if we're going to bootstrap it, it was going to be really difficult, uh, to get it off the ground unless we had a good source of leads from day one. Um, and so that's why we kind of thought that, well, let's see if we can build a sustainable source of traffic with this free stock photo site and if we can, , that will really improve our chances of being successful with, , with the SaaS app.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. And this kind of breaks down [00:06:00] to sort of a tactic that a lot of people read. And again, like most of our listeners and stuff are focused on just trying to create something, but for the first time, not necessarily, you know, go raise venture or blow it up or whatever and make it their full time job, but they just want to get going.

And, um, I've always found that interesting. Like, you gotta go kinda from like a weird angle, but like find the need and test stuff. And I generally say to people like, you don't even need a product like, just. Like what you sort of did was like put out, I guess it started with the blog post, which is what gave you the signal to say that this is something that people are looking for.

Um, and then you kind of converted that into the product later after the fact, which I think is super interesting.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, definitely. I mean, if we had started right off the bat with the SAS tool, , I don't know how successful it would have been. At least it would've been a hell of a lot harder, let's put it that way.

Um, so by having that blog post and then the stock photo site, it's certainly. , de-risks , like lower the risk quite a bit, that's for sure.

Brandon Waselnuk: Right. And I mean, like, so my next question is, uh, [00:07:00] just a bit about how you got your initial like 10 to like maybe 20 customers. I think you may have answered that, but.

And was it through the traffic?

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, that's exactly it. So essentially, I'm just kind of to give a bit more detail. So once we had a stock photo site in place, like I said, we really wanted to validate it as much as we could because we had done some mistakes with a previous, um, you know, businesses before where we just, you know, hacked away for, you know, three to six months launched something and then, Oh shit, we wasted our time.

Brandon Waselnuk: If you build it, they will come, right.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. So we basically the, I mean, the first thing we did was just sent out like a basic survey to figure out what people were using the stock photos for and sure enough, Oh, cool. Um, yeah. And, and so sure. And sure enough, quite a few of them came back and said, Oh, we're using it for content marketing or social media.

And so we're like, okay, perfect. That's kind of the, um, the, the target audience that we're going for. , and then we took it a step further. For the [00:08:00] people that were using it for, you know, content and social media. , I did, uh, you know, customer interviews with about 15, 20 people and just asking them like, open ended questions, , similar to, um, the advice from lean customer development, , which is a great book.

Um, and so, you know, ask them like, , what, what, you know. What's your current process for graphic design? Like what tools are using, you know, what do you do before and after creating a graphic and you know, sure enough, we started hearing or start hearing a lot of things like, yeah, I use an in house or we have an in house graphic designer, but like, you know, the lead time is kind of slow and, you

Brandon Waselnuk: know, brief.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. And then a lot of people saying, yeah, I use Photoshop. It's a pain in the ass. Um, and so that's so true. Yeah. Yeah. So that gave us the validation or the, the, the confidence, or at least started. So at that point, um, the first thing we did was just throw up a landing page. And, uh, what we did was on our stock photo site, we added like a link in our star, a sidebar, um, [00:09:00] called the graphic tool.

And I think we added like, kind of like a banner ad sort of thing. And so we, and then we just started collecting the emails. So when we first we launched like a, essentially a beta. And I think at that time we had maybe like a thousand or 2000 emails. Um, so we launched the beta, started collecting feedback, like fixing bugs, adding kind of necessary features, and then, um, you know, we officially launched the tool a few months after that.

And I think at that time we had about like 5,000 people either on the beta or on the email list. , and that's, yeah, definitely how we got the first batch of customers.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's awesome, man. That's, that's really lovely. And did you kind of have them actually come in and because of the fact that you had the lower price point, like, I mean, I know you mentioned it's a freemium tool, but like.

Those that converted to actually paying? Did it happen off those initial, like kind of outreaches and emails and through the beta because they saw the value of the product and it was like low enough that they tried, or was that a bit of a challenge too, to take them through, you know, the [00:10:00] free usage into a paid usage?

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, so when we launched the beta, basically like every, it was just completely open and free. Right. And then what we did was we essentially. Yeah. You know, sent out an email and we're, and we made it very clear, um, that like this was a beta and, you know, yeah. You know, we were going to charge at some point, kind of

Brandon Waselnuk: this will break.


Chris Gimmer: exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, and so what we did was. We knew that, , our, we want to have a price point of $15 per month or a 120 for the year, which basically works out to 10 a month. And so what we did was we said, okay, um, you know, we're launching on, , this date, um, if you want to lock in a lifetime discount of

33%. Um, you know, you can upgrade for the next week. And so basically the people on the annual plan, we're paying 90 per year and on the monthly plan, a 10 bucks a month. And so the first week that we kind of had that, , discount window open, , we were, we got to [00:11:00] 2000 MRR. Um, and then our first month we were doing about 4,000 MRR.

Brandon Waselnuk: Uh, so that's impressive for everybody listening, by the way, to pull that off, man. Like that's, that's incredible. Congratulations to you and the team.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, thank you. And, and like I said, I mean, the, the reason we were able to is because we had, , you know, all of those leads and, and people, , built up.

Whereas if we just launched that SaaS app and threw it out in the open, uh, definitely wouldn't have had a couple of grand in MRR, that's for sure.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. I mean, but at the same time, I think about it like your. Market segment though large by like a human count, like the number of people who are probably thinking to themselves, I don't, I don't know, Photoshop or Figma, I guess nowadays, but back then there was no Figma and such.

Like there's a lot of people that could use it. , but at the same time, that means that it's, in my opinion, it's notoriously hard to convert an a B to C basis, like business to consumer. So. I think it's a pretty monument to the fact that you identified a really significant [00:12:00] pain point for people. Um, the price point is, will love, I mean, I think it's great.

I hadn't realized it was actually so inexpensive. Um, is that still the pricing today

Chris Gimmer: or? Yeah, so it's still $15 per month or 120 for the year. So, or 120 on there.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. That's great. Like, I mean. Yeah. Anyway, I know some people who will pay like 100 bucks to like someone to give them like one asset.

So, uh,

Chris Gimmer: yeah. Yeah. We, we tried to keep it like as no brainer as possible. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's crazy. Like people are still paying, you know, 25, 30 bucks a month, like you said, just for one stock photo. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, we're, we're really cognizant of the fact that we're serving kind of the lower end of the market.

So we want it to be just super valuable and a no brainer as opposed to, you know, trying to eke out every cent that we can. That's kind of, uh, and, you know, I feel like it builds up some Goodwill and whatnot. So that, that's kinda how we approach it. Yeah,

Brandon Waselnuk: of course. And, um, I mean, if you feel comfortable, I'm sure you guys have loved lovely long roadmap, but is [00:13:00] there an intention to at some point open up like a higher tier with like some level of advancement that makes it worthwhile to you or you think you're going to always stay in this sort of like single price range?

Chris Gimmer: So right now we have a team plan. Um, okay. Uh, to be honest, like it could be a lot better. Um, and

Brandon Waselnuk: so,

Chris Gimmer: yeah, so, um, there's definitely some opportunity there, like, especially in the last few weeks. Uh, I think the coronaviruses had something to do with it. We've had a. Uh, a much bigger number of like, larger organizations being like, Hey, can I use Snappa for like a hundred people?

And the reality is it's like not really built for that right now.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yes. But no.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. Uh, so there, there definitely is, um, some opportunity there to, um, make it a bit more robust and flexible for larger organizations. So. Um, yeah, like if, if we're, if we're going to try to increase the revenue per user, I think that is the way we would go about it, rather than, , trying [00:14:00] to eke out, you know, extra revenue from like the individual user.

Brandon Waselnuk: That means right. Yeah, of course. Totally. I mean, I always wonder, um, in a B to C capacity, it's pretty tricky. And often I find that companies actually make the mistake of trying to increase the revenue per customer, like a, like a higher LTV or whatever, uh, like lifetime value. Sorry for those listening. Um, and then, yeah, they wind up going down this like kind of bad downward spiral where people kind of get irritated that like the new and interesting features and how like kind of pay walled.

So, yeah, it's just interesting. I mean, we're certainly works in some markets and then in others it does not.

Chris Gimmer: So. Yeah, definitely. And I think in this, the kind of space that we're playing in and these kind of, , tools for the SMB or lower end of the market, uh, it seems that a lot of people are kind of gravitating to that, you know, $20 a month ish price point.

And so I think a lot of people are kind of anchored towards that. Um, I think probably like the highest we can go on. W w without sacrificing too [00:15:00] much of, uh, the Goodwills. So, you know, we're, we're happy with the price point we're at right now. No, for sure.

Brandon Waselnuk: I mean, I think about it like at our company that, you know, we're running a dignified, like.

Yeah. If anyone on my staff was like, Hey, I got this tool, it's like 10 bucks a month or 12 or 15 or whatever. If it's under 20, I'd basically be like, yes, you have the right to buy whatever you want for under 20 bucks a month, and like, there's no procurement basically.

Chris Gimmer: Exactly. Yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. So that, that's super, that's awesome.

Men, I'm dialing back. I'm just going to flip back in time. I guess you, you mentioned that you did the beta release. Um. Just off the top, like a lot of people when they're getting going with their first product, um, they always, we actually have them write in sometimes or messages or email me or tweet me, I guess, whatever way they can via carrier pigeon.

Um, ask about when do you do an alpha versus a beta versus just call it a release. And I think that that's still like one of those weird arts in the world. It's like less a science. Uh, but I'm interested in your take like. Why did you call it a beta? Was it more of a marketing [00:16:00] tactic or was it like a genuine development.

You know, requirement. Like what? Yeah, how did that kind of play out for you at Snappa?

Chris Gimmer: Uh, so for us, those two things, one, , I mean, you can always get, you can do all the customer interviews in the world, but until someone's actually using your product, , you're just not going to get all the information that you need.

So the, I guess the first, , thought process was like. Okay. On paper, it seems like a good idea and people, you know, I, I think there were, were, there's definitely some pain points there. , but let's, you know, put an actual product in front of people. Like, , one of my favorite biographies is the Steve jobs biography.

And you know, when you've developed products, like he always wanted, like to be able to hold it in his hand. Right? And it wasn't until he had it in his hand, um, where he really liked felt the, the product, if you will. , so that was the first thing. And then the other thing was trying to figure out what features to prioritize, because again, we're bootstrapped.

Mark's the only person working on [00:17:00] the product at this point. So. Uh, or at that point. Yeah. Yeah. No, we had, we had development team. Um, that's great. Yeah. So we, you know, I'm sure you know this, Brandon, like you can spend years working on an MVP or her, you know, you want to have a product. Um, and so the, the idea of the beta was figuring out what are the absolute crucial features that we need.

To launch with that people will pay us money versus the ones that can wait until later. So that, that was the goal of, of the betas to, to figure it, figure that

Brandon Waselnuk: out. That's awesome. Yeah. So that's, that's a bit on like, I mean, you mentioned lean earlier. There's obviously quite a series of books written around it.

Um, and they're all lovely. Like Steve blank, I believe is the godfather, as they say. But then, you know, Eric Reis and all sorts of other things. But. One part of that is like lean development, but also the understanding of there is a minimum viable product, which most people understand the MVP side of things.

But I find lately there's a gap [00:18:00] between what people get as a MVP to get people using and then an MSP. So the minimum sellable product in this case. Do you feel like that's what you're navigating towards cause you were like, okay, we can actually try to convert on this set of features now or is it just get usage so more of the MVP side.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, I think it combination, but probably more, more towards the minimum sellable product like you said, because again, , we knew that we had to start making money off of it. Right. So you need to figure out if, if the product was going to sell and, and what, what were the key features that had to be in there in order for the value proposition to be compelling.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. No, that, that makes a ton of sense. And I again, did I get it. This is like a bit of a dream because you took it from an angle of you already had an operating business, you noticed something that was like important around, you know, you having your own personal challenge of like trying to build this, uh, I guess like assets and jumping into Photoshop and things.

So you, you know, made the [00:19:00] library, make the blog post and everything seems to be really well informed by the basic principles of lean, which is really good to see. And, uh, obviously it's successful. So, you know, Snappa is doing, doing well today.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. It only took three year or maybe two years of mistakes too, to learn how to do it.

Right. So, yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: And, and we didn't talk about like all the stuff you did before Snappa, right. Which is all the learnings and outcomes.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. So by the way, to those listing, no one is an overnight success. I'll say it many times. as humanly possible. Anyone you talked to that? No, that's awesome though.

So from your. Initial turnover. You mentioned like, I mean, you had great MRR out of the gate, that two to four K, like really quickly. Um, but like, how did you continue the growth? Was that. You know, and I'll just let you go. How did, how did you continue growing from there?

Chris Gimmer: So the first, um, I wanna say six months to a year, , we didn't really do much different.

Um, it was the stock photo site just kind of kept sending us leads. [00:20:00] Uh, Mark is just, was just trying to keep afloat. Um, and I was, you know, doing the customer support and kind of marketing and.

Brandon Waselnuk: Sorry for the pause you for a sec, but you were also still operating your other like bootstrap templates, right?

Chris Gimmer: Uh, yeah, that's correct. We ended up, I'm trying to think here, we, we, we ended up selling it off pretty quickly afterwards. Oh, you did? Okay. Not, not for like. And definitely not a life changing amount of money,

Brandon Waselnuk: but, you know,

Chris Gimmer: yeah, it was, it was more so just to like, I mean, the, the, like I said, it was plateauing.

It wasn't like wasn't killing it for us, so it was just, uh, more to get it off her plate so that we didn't have, and, you know, didn't want, I didn't just want to like shut it down and screw over the, you know, uh, people that, the community that we have built. Um, so fortunately, um. Someone I had met in that space, I kind of reach out to to me because he knew that we had launched Snappa and we were kind of focusing on that [00:21:00] and basically offered to take it off my hands.

So yeah, it kind of worked out well.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh, that's cool. I just wanted to clarify, as you talk through how you grew that you did have other focuses. It's not like you were full tilt on the business.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. , and then also, even, even while we were in the beta period, , when we're working on, on the last business, Mark and I still had day jobs at that time, so we're still being on the side.

And it wasn't until, , we launched the beta for Snappa where we actually had, we like, we, we could see the traction. Um, then we took a leave of absence from work and. Once we launched Snappa and we saw the traction with the MRR, then we kind of officially quit and went full time

Brandon Waselnuk: on. So you're like, yeah, nevermind.

I'm not coming home.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So too, yeah. So to go back to the question, um, yeah, the F the first six months to a year was just, you know, kind of doing the same thing and just trying to, to stay afloat. , and then eventually, you know, we were at this point where we're focusing a lot on [00:22:00] the, . On Snappa obviously and sites like Unsplash, we're just really going all in and, you know, ad they had added search functionality and there's a couple of other sites, , and so, and, and we weren't really putting much emphasis on stock snap.

And so we knew that we needed to build out additional marketing channels and it was getting, you know, hard to focus on the two products going at the same time. Um. So from that point, we really, , built out our content marketing and SEO channel. So we started writing a lot of content related to, you know, what Snappa does.

So, you know, we wrote content about, you know, Facebook cover sizes and a YouTube thumbnail graphics, and, you know, content that if someone were searching for, there was a good chance that they would have a need for a product. So essentially, bottom of the funnel content. And that, that sort of working really well.

And for the last, , you know, several years we've just been really doubling down on the content and [00:23:00] SEO and basically all the organic stuff. And we actually ended up. Selling off a stock snap, , a few years after, because again, we were really just focusing on snap at that time. And so we wanted to be able to just, you know, double down and focus on Snappa, um, knowing that we didn't really have an interest in building, like, uh, as free a, you know, a stock photo site as,

Brandon Waselnuk: yeah, totally, totally.

That makes sense. Uh, and, and, you know, focus is. Just so, so terribly important.

Chris Gimmer: So when, um, so like the first year, I think like maybe 85%, 85 to 90% of our leads were coming from stock snap. , by the time we sold the website, it was like maybe 15% or something like that. Oh, okay. So the, the content and SEO was increasingly becoming the, uh, larger and larger percentage of our traffic.

And so that's why we felt comfortable. Uh, selling, selling that off, um, getting, you know, nice, nice, [00:24:00] uh, you know, cash in her bank account and then being able to, you know, focus purely on, on the SAS product.

Brandon Waselnuk: Awesome. It's an excellent decision. That's really cool. And, um, I mean, also. Like a, again, like I'm thinking timelines here, right?

You had brought stock, snap to market I think especially around the time where it was really important. So of course it was compelling, but I assume as you continue to go on and on and on, like more say competitors, but I mean it was all supposed to be a free thing, but like a lot more people were coming into play and I suppose that probably slowed you down as well in terms of just net new traffic.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. And even, um, a lot of the, like, some like Unsplash for example, I mean they raised a bunch of money. Um, so like, and they had built up a really good community. So like, we knew that there was no chance that our, you know, we're going to be able to compete with them or any of these other stock photo sites where they had like, full dedicated teams on these projects where for us it was just kind of like a lead lead gen side thing.

Um, so. [00:25:00] Yeah, it definitely made sense, um, to, to sell it and we got a really good offer for it. Um, so once we jumped on that, yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. Well, congrats. I mean, it's pretty rare that anyone gets to do an acquisition. You did too, though. Maybe the first one might've been a little bit smaller, but

Chris Gimmer: yeah. First one was, it was definitely a lot smaller than the second one, that's for sure.

Brandon Waselnuk: Cool. Yeah, I know from five to 10 bucks, right, man.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh, that's awesome. Um, well cool. I really appreciate it. So, uh, are you. Now. I know when we first met, we were hanging out. You were fully bootstrapped. Are you still fully bootstrapped?

Chris Gimmer: We're still fully bootstrapped yet.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's amazing. So I just want to let you know if I, if I could have like a, I should get some buttons on this podcast.

You get like a round of applause. Yeah. Like you, you've bootstrapped through the phase. Of everyone in the world and their dog's trying to raise venture funding cause it was the cool thing to do. So first of all, congrats. That's amazing. Um, I'm sure you've thought about it at times and all that jazz. Um, but like.

How was [00:26:00] that experience and how do you feel now being bootstrapped as compared to watching some of these other businesses? I think closing their doors because they raise too much.

Chris Gimmer: It's really funny because we actually did try to raise money, uh, naively when we were in that like beta phase, right. And the

Brandon Waselnuk: biggest, now I know we have a story there together.

I just didn't want to say it unless you wanted to

Chris Gimmer: say. Yeah. Well, essentially, um. Yeah. So like at that time, you know, like I said, Mark was, was still building this thing on nights and week. Yeah, exactly. Solo dev. And, and so we, you know, we can see this traction and we're like, okay, well if we raise money, then we can go full time on it.

No problem. Maybe hire, you know, another developer, whatever. And so, uh, uh, spoiler, we didn't end up raising money. And then, like you said, we, we just. If you just, um, it was funny, we had an epiphany because, um. I think that the biggest reason was, I guess we [00:27:00] just didn't have enough traction and there was a, you know, a bit of competition in the space.

And so, you know, Mark was just like, fuck it, I'm going to take a year off work and I need to bang this out. And we were both super committed at that time. And yeah, so we, we ended up launching it. And like I said, I think things went pretty well. And at that point. The, the further we got, the less, um, you know, we, we really wanted to raise money.

And now that we're in the position that we are today. You know, I'm pretty thankful that we didn't end up going to DC wrote. Um, not that I, I'm definitely not anti VC or anything, but, um, I just think based on the, you know, the unit economics and kind of our, our, you know, channels and whatnot. Um, you know, the business just would have been completely different had we raised money and, and we might, we might have gone bust, just signed to just trying to grow at all costs.

So, yeah. So yeah, it all worked out.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. It's just, it's [00:28:00] always an interesting thing to me. I just remember around that time we talked a little bit about it. Um, you know, and I think I called some friends for you, but it's weird how people think so differently. And I remember I was so convinced that you were.

Gonna to make it. And I mean, it sounds rich now, obviously you guys are doing well, so I'm like, ha ha. But there's that side of it where it's like it was more you and Mark and like, I was like, Oh man. Like there. They're going to make like this. This is going to work. But yeah, it was interesting to see how much the, especially, I guess at the time, because this was what, like 2015

Chris Gimmer: yeah, we officially launched it November, 2015 so I would have probably met you.

I think we probably initially maybe early or something like that.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah, just in the scene, the Ottawa tech scene. But uh, yeah, no, I just remember that. Yeah. Cause cons and friends and stuff and they're just, you know, they were so hardcore about like very weird specific metrics, especially around a consumer kind of play.

I remember you were having like, trying to explain, you're like, this is actually an SMB play, but like nobody really believed you. It was weird. [00:29:00] But, uh, Hey, here we are now, man.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's funny cause now I, you know. Um, we, we get enough every time there's like a new, um, you know, podcasts, interview or whatever.

There's always at least like one VC that hits me up and you're like, Hey, uh, you're looking to raise money sailed. Yeah,

Brandon Waselnuk: yeah, exactly. This is where I say like, what's your, what's your current MRR?

Chris Gimmer: , so right now we're doing, um, 94, K USD and MRR.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah, that's fantastic, man. See, like, so wonderful. And it's supporting like a, a dub bigger team around it.

Like how, what's your head count at it right now?

Chris Gimmer: , we actually just added our fifth, a full time employee.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh, congratulations. Thank you. And to them, that's amazing. Are they predominantly engineering side?

Chris Gimmer: , so we have a couple of developers. , the, the one we just hired was a graphic designer, , initially using, , contractors for, , the, the templates.

Um, but you know, the stage we're at now, we kind of wanted to have at least like one full [00:30:00] time in house, a graphic designer to kind of, you know, take a charge at that side of the business and help out with some other stuff. Um, so yeah, a couple of developers, a designer, and then a marketing and like social media.

A person.

Brandon Waselnuk: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Like a, again, I think that's the other joy of bootstrapping as we continue on that theme, a bit like growing intentionally, I'm going to say like with like the word of the day apparently is thoughtfulness. That's, that's all. That's what you're supposed to say if you do VC or venture to these days, but.

It's kind of true here is like thoughtfully hiring and hiring kind of slow could be a secret superpower in my opinion as opposed to, you know, I just closed my series a better go hire a hundred humans. Um. That still blows my mind. I don't understand how people maintain culture, how they make sure that people are working on the right things or prioritization like it.

It blows my mind like how was that experience for you?

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's way easier to hire people when it just becomes so [00:31:00] obvious and apparent that you need to, right first, like you

Brandon Waselnuk: said, doing a little design.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. Whereas like, here's $1 million, like go hire a bunch of people. It's like, okay, well what exactly do we need right now?

Like I just feel like that would be incredibly challenging. Um, so yeah, the first hire we made was, as you probably would have guests, a developer, just because Mark was just trying to, a little bit much. Yeah. Trying to keep his head above water. Um, and then. Uh, the next hire was kind of like that marketing support person because, um, it got to a point where I was just having trouble, you know, coming up with, uh, you know, all the stuff that we need to be doing on the marketing side and executing it well.

Also doing customer support. Um, so again, it just becomes so obvious, like, what is the big need. Um, and yeah, I think, uh, that's a great way to, to hire as opposed to, um, kind of guessing what you're going to need. Yeah. I think that's really challenging and I mean, I commend, um, some [00:32:00] of these founders that like double their headcount every six months.

Like, I just, I couldn't imagine how difficult that must be.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh, it's gotta be mind blowing. When my brother joined Shopify as an example, like years ago, like I think like six now or something. Um, I went in and I had like. Lunch with them. We were hanging out and there was like this, like, you know, I don't know, a couple tables put together with a bunch of laptops lying on them.

And I was like, that seems weird. What's that? And he's like, Oh, that's like the hiring cohort coming in. And it was like, you know, 15 laptops. And he's like, yeah, we're doing like 15 new hires a week. And they do them on Mondays.

Chris Gimmer: And

Brandon Waselnuk: I was like, what? And yeah, in my head, I'm like, that's nonsense. Literally flash forward, you know, like three years later I walked in and just the entire floor was laptops, like the entire, like level 300 in the building was laptops and I was like, Adam, what's going on?

And he's like, yeah, we're hiring. I think we're onboarding, you know, like 300 people today. I was like, okay, this is, I don't know, man. That might be a problem I don't ever want to solve. But kudos to those people.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah,

Brandon Waselnuk: I don't even, [00:33:00] yeah, I mean you get to the whole, like. Everything becomes a process, I assume.

But yeah, I, I like the small scale. Maybe that's just a me thing.

Chris Gimmer: Yep. Definitely.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. So, um, obviously snap those in a bit of a competitive space. So how do you actually keep your edge against, uh, the larger competitors or other new entrants to the market that are coming? Like, do you see any erosion of your customer base or is it, you know, pretty steady.

Chris Gimmer: It's funny, when we first started, I was much more fearful about competition. Um, and I guess over the years, like you realize that the market is so big and if, again, if you're bootstrapping, you only need a slice of it, right? Like, you don't need to dominate, you know, next Amazon. Um, and so essentially our strategy has always been, you know, do.

Just just focus. , so for us, that's two things. Number one is just keeping the product super easy [00:34:00] to use. , and the other thing is we're kind of targeting, like I said, that SMB kind of market. Um, so some of our competitors. You know, you can create like birthday invitations and wedding invitations. But for us, that doesn't really serve any purpose cause someone who's trying to create a birthday card is never going to pay us any money.

So we really try to focus on that like SMB side. , and I would say more marketing type of graphics as opposed to trying to be the end all be all tool that caters to every single person that wants to create any type of design. And when you're, you know, VC backed and you've got, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in funding, you, you can play that game and, and it makes sense to play that game.

You have that game. , but for us, obviously we would get crushed if we didn't, if we tried to play that. Um, so yeah, we, we just try to keep our tool incredibly easy to use. . We also, you know, from day one focused on all-inclusive [00:35:00] pricing. , which means that any photo graphic or icon that you find within Snappa is completely free, unlimited usage.

So you pay the subscription fee and you never have to pay us any more money where some of our editors are doing kind of like the microtransactions and the upsells. , yeah. Yeah. So I would say those are the three things is keeping the tools super easy to use. , all-inclusive pricing. And just focusing on that one core demographic

Brandon Waselnuk: now it makes a ton of sense.

I'm a bit of a side note. I guess I'm a pretty big gamer and any game that introduces microtransactions, I generally start to dislike strongly. I presume I feel the same way about my business tools.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, definitely. So, and that's actually when I was doing the, . All right. I don't think that was in the initial customer interviews, but, um, in the early, you get a lot of like, uh, customer surveys and interviews and stuff.

And that was one of the things that I remember hearing a lot at the time was like, you know, I don't want to pay a dollar for this photo and a [00:36:00] dollar for this. I just want everything included. Um, like a no brainer to, to enable that. Yeah. Make,

Brandon Waselnuk: it makes a ton of sense. Especially it's, it's weird, right?

Cause when I think through your user scenario, like a little bit more too. That also makes a ton of sense. Like, I mean, I don't know about these other tools, but like when I'm doing, especially if I'm doing a net new or if I'm designing for like, you know, some of my social media posts, I want to make some graphics, like I mess around a lot and then I'm like, Oh, that's the look and feel or whatever.

Like I see the thing on the page. I go, yeah, okay. That's what I wanted to make. So I'd be really frustrated if I like spent a buck and then a buck, and then I like look at it and I'm like, Oh, I didn't like this. And then I go spend another like couple bucks to like look at the other one. Now, I don't know if they let you put the thing on a page and then you just can't publish it without paying.

I guess that would get rid of that. But in your case, I'd love that way more. It's like. All of the things I have access to so I can just mess with it all.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, definitely. And one of the things too was even if you do pay for the photo, , if you want it to like repost, like let's say a week later, [00:37:00] you want to kind of update that and post it again, you would have to pay again.

Or you'd have maybe like an ex, you know, or pay for like an extended license that was like really expensive. Oh. Um, so yeah, again, for us, it all comes back to just like, just keep things simple. Like. Yeah. Keep things simple.

Brandon Waselnuk: 100% especially, I mean, that might be why you're seeing an uptake in traffic right now too.

Like there's a madness going on in the markets essentially. So like any, almost everyone wants like a clear understanding of what they're paying for and what they are getting. So

Chris Gimmer: yeah, a hundred percent

Brandon Waselnuk: yeah, that sounds like a weird nightmare. Um, that I wouldn't want to get into. Crazy. Uh, so, I mean, we talked a little bit about it throughout, but like, my last question before I started hitting you with some quick fire stuff for fun is, uh, where is snap at today?

And like, where are you going next? Like, what are you looking for? And if there's anything you want to share with the listeners that you're excited about, let us know.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. We're actually, , in the. Tail end of a, of a huge refactor project. [00:38:00] Um, yeah, as, as you can imagine, we've, um, kind of built up some technical debt over, over the years.

Um, and Mark and the rest of our development team have, have gotten a lot more sophisticated about how to properly build a SAS app. Um, and you know, and you know, like it's, it's hard to predict. The stuff from day one.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. I'm going to do the pause again, like listeners, when you're, if you're building from nothing, this will happen.

You will have tech debt. You may replatform but to anyway, please continue.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, so essentially about a year ago, like we, we kind of got to this point where we saw all of these. , ways to improve the product, , and just the way to structure it a lot better. And every time we thought, okay, well we can patch this part, and then you would kind of, we would kind of go into it and be like, Oh man, that's going to be a nightmare to, to overhaul that one piece.

And then eventually we said, we just need to basically rewrite this thing.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah,

Chris Gimmer: yeah, yeah. So it's been challenging in the sense that like, we haven't. , really [00:39:00] shipped a lot of features in the last year. Um, so like to our customers, it might seem as though we're not really like doing much, whereas we're actually just, you know, ripping out code left, right.

And center and every day. Yeah, exactly. Working hard behind the scenes. So, , fortunately we're, we're seeing the, the light at the end of the tunnel and, um, that, you know, at some point, , before the end of the year, we're going to have a really big, , unveil, , so to speak. So that's going to be. The big news.

And then like I mentioned before, I think the next step beyond that would be to, , improve the team plan, , and making the tool a bit easier and more robust for, , not just like single person use, but for, um, obviously we're, we're, we're never going to build like an enterprise product, um, but a, a bit more of a, a robust and a product for like larger teams.

Uh, let's call it.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. And does that play a little bit like. I guess there's a bit of a side note, but like are you doing like integration approaches now? Like, like the Figma's of the world that [00:40:00] have shown up? Are you trying to like make it nice and easy for them to like integrate or like, I guess they all export designs, so that might be the way they do it, but.

Have you done any of that?

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. Um, we, we ha the only, uh, integration we have right now is with buffer. So if you create a graphic, um, you can schedule it directly within Snappa. Um, and again, integrations is one of those things where with the current code base, it would, it's just a huge pain to add an

Brandon Waselnuk: integrate your baby while you have one.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly. Um, and, and even like the Facebook and , we also have like Facebook and Twitter integrations with. Sure. Anyway, um, so again, like. We, we just kind of got to this point where realize like, if we want to really take that next step, uh, we've really just need to rewrite this thing and build it in a very thoughtful, modular way.

Um, so we don't have any, uh, like immediate plans right now for integrations, but that's definitely, that's. Uh, one of those things that's always at the back of her mind. Um, you know, even potentially like [00:41:00] a Shopify integration or additional HootSweet integration, uh, there's definitely a lot of stuff that we can do there for sure.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. And it's all, I assume you sort of operate on that user scenario sort of basis, right? Like, what are the customers saying then you think through their day job and like where they want to go next and like just how to optimize that path for them.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, exactly.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's really cool. That's, that's great.

And, um, yeah, so I guess the launch is coming. Is there anything else about Snappa that you want to share?

Chris Gimmer: Um, yeah, would say that, that, that's the main thing really. Sweet.

Brandon Waselnuk: Well, people check it out.

Chris Gimmer: Um, yeah, I guess we do have like a F a free starter plan. So, um, if anyone, , is at home right now and, , isolating and they want to finally start that side project that they've always wanted to, I think Shopify is offering like a 90 day free trial now.

So, uh, yeah, if you, if you need any graphics, , you know, check it out.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah, for sure. Uh, awesome. So my, uh, my next thing is just a made up on the spot as I cough over here. A [00:42:00] quick fire round that we'll go through.

Chris Gimmer: Cool. Let's do it.

Brandon Waselnuk: Alright. Sorry. I'm starting to apparently choke. So what is your favorite book right now that you would suggest, um,

Chris Gimmer: for like specifically for marketing or can it be kind of anything?

Yeah, you can do anything. Um. I just finished reading the price of tomorrow. Um, which is a, I've been reading a lot more about like finance and economics. Um, and so that, that's a really good book. Um, and essentially the premise is like for the last hundred years with Viet currencies, we've been in like an inflationary environment, but because.

Technology by nature is deflationary. , it kind of, uh, gives an example of a world that's going to look really different, , with the, the pace of, of tech innovation and kind of what are some of the challenges that, that are going to come out of that. , so that was a really great read.

Brandon Waselnuk: That sounds awesome.

Is it like deeply messing around with the cryptocurrency [00:43:00] concepts or does it sort of stay away.

Chris Gimmer: , well, it basically kind of, you know, obviously Bitcoin is the, you know, the one right now that probably stands to benefit. , you know, I have a small position in Bitcoin. I don't really, , dabble in any of the other crypto stuff.

But yeah, it's, it's essentially like, you know, no one stops to think, what would the world look like if we didn't try to have inflation? Right. Well, like, what if there is no. Que quantitative easing, and we're in unprecedented times right now with all the money that's been printed and 0% interest rates.

And so it almost feels like we're just kind of like running on a treadmill. Well, what if we did allow deflation? What if you know people's savings? Actually. What if their purchasing power, like Rose every year? Right. Well, what would that look like? And obviously there's some implications on the employment side of things.

Right. , but it, it's, yeah, it was, it was just super interesting, , how he kind of thinks through that. And, , I think Jeff Booth is the guy that wrote the book, really [00:44:00] successful entrepreneur. , so yeah, that's, . Definitely. I've been reading a lot of, of, you know, history of money and yeah. And, and all of this kind of stuff.

So I've kinda been geeking out on that, uh, over the past a year or so. Yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: Well, during the quarantine, , maybe not on this live recording of our episode, you call me anytime. This is super fascinating to me. , yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on how that goes and how essentially star Trek, who invented the first world without like.

Money, more or less. Anyway, I've been exploring a lot of scifi lately.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. And that's when, , if anyone is kind of like Bitcoin standard is another really cool book. , really interesting. The book that I read, and even if like, you don't believe in Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, just learning about the history of money and how, you know, Fiat currencies came to be and yeah.

You know, the, the gold standard and Breton woods and. Yeah. It's super fascinating too, to learn about that stuff. And then you can kind of form your own opinions as to whether you think the [00:45:00] current track is sustainable or, or whether, , it's possible that we could move to a new standard. So.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh yeah, it's, it's, I mean, one of the earliest, I guess it's like a point of trivia, like when they introduced the American USD dollar, like it was backed by gold.

You would, you could transfer that paper money for gold as a raw asset. And then at one point they just said, no, we're not doing that anymore. And I remember then like, there's all these articles you can go dig up them up on, like, you know, these archives and stuff. It's, it's fascinating. They thought it was like the end of the world.

You're like, what's the dollar worth? Then if there's nothing backing it, like all this craziness.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. There's a, there's a website you guys I saw recently. It's, if you Google like what the fuck happened in 1971. Nice. Ah, there's some really interesting charts, , that, that showed. You know what happened once?

Uh, yeah, we got off the gold tender. That's, that's really interesting. So yeah, that sounds like you've done a, you've gone down the rabbit hole a bit too.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah. Yeah. Well, in our last one, I was working at a venture capital firm. We actually built their entire, like cryptocurrency division and it was [00:46:00] trading the top 15 crypto.

Gotcha. As like an index fund. The theory being if you trade your top 50 and you hold them, you would. Outpaced just the Bitcoin, like rather than just holding Bitcoin, is your position the theory proved true. Until there was like quite a bit of downturn. But yeah, during that time, there was a lot of learning.

Anyway, this is wildly fascinating and I've also destroyed the concept of what a quick fire round is.

But, uh, it's interesting. Uh, our fans will let me know if they hate me. So, uh, the next question, my friend is, uh, what is your suggestion of a binge worthy show right now due to quarantine.

Chris Gimmer: Oh, binge worthy show due to quarantine. Um, wow.

Brandon Waselnuk: You could pick a set of movies if you prefer.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. I don't want to S like, I usually watch a lot of thoughtful documentary, so I definitely don't want to say tiger King right now.

Brandon Waselnuk: No, I haven't. I've somehow avoided that one and now it's almost on principle. I [00:47:00] feel like a hipster, but.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. Well, I'm the new season of Ozarks com, uh, is out now. I haven't watched it yet, but I really enjoyed the first two, so I'll, I'll go with Ozark.

Brandon Waselnuk: Nice.

All right. I'll take it. Uh, what is your recommended quarantine workout?

Chris Gimmer: Um, quarantine workouts. So I actually, fortunately, I, I, I have, uh, um, power blocks, which is basically like expandable, uh, dumbbells. Um, and so I, I do like a upper, lower push pull legs. Uh, okay. Um, and yeah, so I've been, legs has been hard to do it at home cause I don't have like a squat rack or some of the leg machines, but at least upper body I can get a decent workout.

So yeah, just a lot of, um, pull ups. Um, you know, dumbbell bench presses, rows, uh, you know, dumbbell squats, that kind of stuff.

Brandon Waselnuk: Oh, it's perfect. Yeah. No, just generally, most of the folks that [00:48:00] listen to us, right, are, are tech workers by nature. So they're very sedentary. And, uh, I tell people all the time, like, face pulls are your best friend.

You got to do them.

Yes. The only way to keep my back

in shape and not be like a hunched over monster

Chris Gimmer: yea face pulls is, are always in my routine.

Brandon Waselnuk: Good exercise. Yeah, exactly. Uh, I guess you could do bent over reverse flies if you don't have a rope to do a face pull. Anyway, we'll get into that. Uh, and then, uh, by next question, right.

What's your, what's your beverage of choice if you're sitting at your desk? What, what do you usually drink?

Chris Gimmer: And, uh, well, first thing in the morning, I always make a nice coffee with the French press. Uh, gotta grind your own beans. Very important man,

Brandon Waselnuk: a man of

Chris Gimmer: taste. Um, and then afternoons usually just stick

Brandon Waselnuk: to water.


Chris Gimmer: Nothing crazy.

Brandon Waselnuk: I dig it, I dig it. I started getting into the tea game a little bit more. So try to see if anyone's got some recommendations there. Nice. Uh, okay. And then the only other thing I can ask, final message and founders, a lot of [00:49:00] folks listing are either trying to start a or have started and are continuing to build.

And just thinking about, you know, how to create their first product. So what would you say to them?

Chris Gimmer: , I would say don't be so concerned with having. Like the brilliant idea from the start. Um, a lot of founders that I know and talk to, um, the product that ended up being a success was either like their second or third product or some type of pivot.

Um, so I would say just like launch stuff, learn. And once you do. Um, kind of hit the one that works, just focus and double down and don't get shiny object syndrome. Yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: That's hard though.

Chris Gimmer: It's so hard. It's very hard. Yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: Especially what after podcasts, VCs call you and then they're like, are you doing this?

And then people like change their entire damn business plans to raise the money for some reason.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah. It's a, sorry. Well, now I'm trying to butcher the lightning round again, but that's actually a really good. Point, [00:50:00] or one of the really good benefits of bootstrapping is you just, you're, you don't waste time making slide decks and, and you know, uh, taking phone calls of the VCs and stuff like that and the amount of time that that saves and that you can use to make the product better and focus.

Whereas some of the friends that I know. Who were a raising, you know, fundraising and stuff. It's like they literally wasted, well, I shouldn't say waste, but you know, spending two to three months raising rounds, like it's just crazy. Yeah. And they're like full time on it. So, yeah.

Brandon Waselnuk: I, I mean, I've got a personal story there.

Spent probably five months and was not successful. And then at the end you're looking at your product that you've neglected your customer base. That's kind of bummed and upset because we were a team in like six. Yeah. It's really unfortunate, especially if unsuccessful. Cause then it's like that, the term, the word rate waste is the right word.

So you know, you're like, you try to rationalize it at the backside where you're like, well these, I made these [00:51:00] connections, I have relationships. And it's like, well, valid. Like, you know, it's not, they're not deep relationships, right? You're just flying around the world shaking hands.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, for sure. Anymore.

Brandon Waselnuk: I was going to say, I know that's not right.
Anyway, I really appreciate it. Thanks for hanging out with me, Chris. I really, really do appreciate it.

Chris Gimmer: Yeah, it was a great conversation. Thanks for having me.

Brandon Waselnuk: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, anyway, we'll see you soon. And, uh, yeah, check out Snappa it's really wonderful tool

Chris Gimmer: sweet.